Friday, July 14, 2017

MUFON, Billy Meier (and Michael Horn) and Me

In the course of discussing the problems faced by MUFON, I was contacted by Michael Horn, who is the US representative of Billy Meier. Meier is, of course, the
Billy Meier
man who claims contact with alien creatures going back to 1975, or maybe even earlier depending on whether you count his alleged childhood contacts in that number. I told Horn in the initial conversation that I was not a fan of Meier, knew something of the case, but found Horn’s claim about MUFON ignoring Meier to be of interest in what I was doing.

Horn had told me that MUFON refused to book him into their Symposium (which, of course, is their right) but did book others with equally dubious claims. I mean, I can’t believe that some of those in the leadership of MUFON are comfortable with time travelers and claims of a secret space program that has apparently solved the problems of interstellar flight but will reject Meier. If, as Jan Harzan, MUFON’s Executive Director, said, they are interested in providing the information to the membership so that they can decide for themselves what they wish to believe, then why not provide Meier, or Meier’s American representative, with the same platform. I was commenting on the lack of consistency but not endorsing the claims of Billy Meier. (Of course, Harzan is right in not giving Horn a platform at the Symposium or any other MUFON venue but that’s a whole other argument.)

This resulted in a barrage of emails and comments by Horn filled with links to Meier supporting sites, and one-sided arguments about the reality of Meier’s claims. I followed the links which is why I know that. I didn’t find them particularly persuasive. I had looked at the Meier claims in the past and even mentioned that I had Kinder’s book, Light Years, to prove that I had been aware of Meier for a long time and his claims of contact were unproven, at least to me.

This, apparently, annoyed Horn. Censorship was his claim, but it was more of editorial decisions because I can’t publish everything and I don’t want to publish something I don’t believe, unless of course, I’m using it to show how outlandish some stories can be. Without editorial comment, it was a direction I did not want to go. Oh, I’ve given others a chance to respond to my criticisms without me making changes or deleting sections of their responses. Those have been by invitation, such as saying, “If the so and so wishes to respond, I will publish that response without comment.” Sometimes that just seems to be fair.

Horn upped the ante then with other allegations which were little more than a transparent attempt to manipulate me. To prove I wasn’t the things he said I was, I would have to publish his comments, even when those comments were not relevant to the original post. In other words, he was attempting to hijack part of the blog. He wanted to turn it into another propaganda tool for him and Billy Meier.

Well, that’s not going to happen.

Instead, I decided to update my knowledge of Meier and see what others had to say. The consensus seemed to be that the Meier contact claims were not based in reality. I fear mentioning names of those commentators here because I don’t think those others need to be bombarded by emails from Michael Horn.

However, I looked the Meier case up in Jerome Clark’s UFO Encyclopedia, 2nd Edition. It was surprising neutral in tone which is a compliment to Jerry’s reporting. It is certainly skeptical but not filled with the vitriol that sometimes passes for reasoned analyses.

I did note that Jerry had reported, “To prove their reality to skeptical human beings, Semjase [one of Meier’s alien women] said the Pleiadians would make their ‘beamships’ visible to Meier, in turn Meier was to take as many photographs as he could manage.”

This struck me as silly because if the Pleiadians were interested in proving their existence to the skeptics, why not make their beamships visible to a huge crowd assembled for the purpose. With TV cameras rolling and hundreds taking pictures, that would pretty much prove the case… with one man taking the pictures at some secret location as some unspecified time without corroborating witnesses, the pictures themselves proved nothing.

Following in that theme, I found website run by New Mexico skeptics, which attempted to explore some of the Meier claims. You can view the website here:


(You might need to add the title, “MICHAEL HORN’S FAILURE PROVES THE MEIER CASE IS FAKE!” to get to the right page.)

The article was written by Anthony Wharton, St Helens, Merseyside, UK, in 2009 (which is why I mentioned his name). Wharton had, some five years earlier or in 2004, asked Meier and Horn to produce some hard-physical evidence, which in the world today Horn claims had been reviewed in proper scientific arenas. But, Wharton wrote:

I very recently spoke to Meier and Horn, and asked them why, in almost five years, they had failed to meet my challenge. Their response was that they had put forward enough UFO physical evidence, and to put forward any more would be pointless. They went on to speak about the metal alloy samples that they put forward in the 1970's, which were looked at by scientists at the time. In my response [Wharton] I pointed out that Meier had not put forward a single scrap of new photographic evidence in well over 25 years. Why not? I also reminded Meier and Horn that their metal alloy samples came back from the science laboratory with an official report. This report concluded that the samples were 100% terrestrial in origin, and could be very easily replicated by simply melting down some metal alloy and adding some glass, crystals and quartz. Basically, the samples were of no use what so ever to either the UFO or scientific communities.
This is the sort of answer, suggesting they had already done it and were not interested in doing again, is what I expect from those who simply don’t have the proof they claim. I can’t tell you the number of times that I have asked someone for their military records to support their claims of military service and get a similar answer when they say that they have done so and to do so again is pointless. I will also note when challenged I do produce the military records to prove my claims. Here, rather than produce the evidence, they refuse with a ridiculous excuse. If you wish to prove something that is outside the mainstream you must expect repeated requests for the evidence. That’s science. Repeatability.

Wharton concluded, “As regards Billy Meier's and Michael Horn's ultimate failure to meet my challenge, the Billy Meier UFO case can now only ever be regarded as, at best, a work of fiction. Let's not forget that Meier and Horn still claim that Meier is in constant contact with the Plejarans to this very day, [emphasis in the original] so this challenge should literally be a walk in the park for them. What Michael Horn and Billy Meier fail to realize is that, by failing to meet my challenge, it is actually they who have proved that the Billy Meier UFO case is fake.”

There are some other ways to investigate this. For example, and according to Skeptics Guide to the Universe, it was shown, contrary to what had been claimed for Meier, he had not predicted the Paris terror attacks many years earlier. You can see the full article here:


You can read about the Meier prediction and rebuttal here:


Rather than drag this out, I’ll let you all go to the sites to read both articles. I will note, however, there doesn’t seem to be any evidence that Meier did anything other than make some vague statements that could be adapted to any of a number of world events. It is not unlike saying there will be a major earthquake in 2017 (remember you read it here first). I will add that I’m sure that Horn will respond with a long list of other, supportive websites, so I feel no obligation to do so here.

In fact, for those interested in all this, there are any number of websites either endorsing or rejecting Meier’s claims. MUFON is unneeded to give this nonsense a platform because many others have done so, as seen by the number of websites devoted to the Meier case. And while I know that I will now join the ranks of the other “liars and deniers” of the Meier claims, I will also note that I haven’t called anyone a name, suggested they were cowardly, had no integrity, but have tried to provide all the information for those not familiar with a case to come to an informed opinion.

Although Kal Korff has discredited himself repeatedly with his antics, he accurately wrote, in his book Spaceships of the Pleiades, “The Billy Meier ‘evidence’ is now a money-making machine that shows no signs of slowing down.” This says it all.


Let the blow back begin.

57 comments:

KRandle said...

Michael -

Didn't have to link to any of those knowing that you would do that.

Same tired rhetoric.

KRandle said...

The blow back continues...

And there will be no debate. I'm just no longer interested in this nonsense.

Matt Knight said...

Kevin,

What are you afraid of? Stand by your views and debate Michael or they're just flimsy nothing burgers.

You mention "A whole other argument" when slandering Meier, but, never present this argument, just some random skeptics' ill-informed opinions, supporting your own groundless opinion. How many opinions is that away from any real testimony or testing of the evidence from the Meier case?

You must have missed the whole computers/CGI UFO making software revolution thing that happened, or, ignored the reality of it, when pointing "...out that Meier had not put forward a single scrap of new photographic evidence in well over 25 years".

Despite the fact that Meier is, up to today, having ongoing contacts with ETs and proving that by publishing conversations with scientific statements of fact, that are only confirmed corroborate by Science, many times so as to be statistically impossible to make up, you couldn't even provide or afford the levels of testing that were done on Meier's photos in the late 70's/early 80's, so why ask? Just read the results of the investigation, or, stop calling yourself any expert on UFOs.

purrlgurrl said...

I couldn't read through the entire post. I'm so not interested in Meier and his lies and hoaxed photos, and so fed up with MUFON's total sell out on so many levels.

Who cares if an organization that has lost all credibility refuses to give a platform to a UFO hoaxer who also has none. Would we care if ISIS blocked Al Qaeda from its Twitter account?

Jedi Reach said...

Come now Kevin, I'm sure a debate for truth wouldn't hurt, would it? If it's really hocus pocus, then here's your chance to prove it.

Jedi Reach said...

Come now Kevin,

Here's your chance to debate for the sake of truth. Don't you want that? Truth?

Paul Kimball said...

Welcome to the "Michael Horn will spam you until you block him" club, Kevin. It has an honourable membership full of people who are sane and rational

PK

tom livesey said...

Surely the point is MUFON's double standards? Why privilege the latest shiny stories and disrespect the history of the field? Why is it security clearance carrying Blue Avians now, and not inscrutable maverick Greys or loving Pleiadeans? There is a whole historiography or psychology to be written here, a whole politics and economics perhaps. Are we just to blow in the wind like winged goldfish instead?

KRandle said...

Thanks. Paul.

I thought it silly of him to announce a debate without bothering to ask me. There is no point in a debate.

Jedi Reach said...

"There is no point in a debate."

Why? Also agreeing with someone who is slandering? Bad taste dude.

Unknown said...

Coz you afraid to MH..debate with him

jag sohal said...

Come on KRandle debate with MH,are you afraid?

james tankersley said...

I can ASSURE you that Kevin is NOT afraid to debate with anyone! He has served his country as a vietnam vet, helicopter pilot, an air force intelligence officer, has had a TOP SECRET clearance, has agreed to debate Kal Korf numerous times before Kal suddenly canceled his cowardly appearance without warning or reason to justify it. He was even in the Iraq war fighting these madman intolerant terrorists who were blowing their selves up with bombs all for an insane power hungry dictator and his ilk on a daily basis! How many of critics who are attacking Kevins GENUINE UFO research can say that?

Jedi Reach said...

@ Blogger james tankersley

If he's not afraid then why doesn't he just engage in disproving MH? You talk about cowardly yet here's a guy who refuses to even engage.

If Meier is BS then here's the chance to publicly disprove it and MH.

Saying 'it's nonsense', 'they're insane', is unscientific. Show us why it's nonsense and disprove MH 1 on 1. I mean -- why not? You guys ARE interested in truth, right?

karumudi mahesh chowdary said...

Michael Horn: "People can find all the freely available evidence, analyses, corroboration of owe 200 specific examples of Meier’s information at my blog and site (apparently Kevin won’t allow my links). "

A shameful blatant lie that has been exposed in our research analyzing hundreds of Meier's supposed "corroborated" prophecies and predictions. Let me quote from our BMUFOR website:
http://www.billymeieruforesearch.com/prophecies-predictions-probability-calculations/#Conclusions

"And the most important finding of our investigation into the widely touted extraordinary claims and by far the strongest evidence supporting the null hypothesis, is the uncovering of so much incriminating evidence of deception and falsification. And this has been quite evident and demonstrable in many of Meier’s so-called “fulfilled” prophecies and predictions, which exhibits the following four patterns (or modus operandi), strikingly matching all the hallmarks of an ingenious hoax:

1. Publish information on events or discoveries that are vague, open ended, recyclable, catch-all, shotgunning, statistically likely or unfalsifiable.
2. Publish information only after the occurrence of events or discoveries, but misleadingly with an older publication date printed on it, i.e. a date that is older than the described event or discovery. And often either explicitly or implicitly claim to be the first person in the world to announce it.
3. Publish information that is already or later proven to be baloney or erroneous, or that is considered to be downright pseudoscience or myth. As a result of this, Meier gets his specific details wrong in EXACTLY the same way the scientists and others had it wrong at the time Meier published it.
4. Either slip in new specific details or alter the texts, conveniently, in later reprints/editions of his SELF-PUBLISHED books (Wassermannzeit publishing house) in order to make it accord with the latest information or scientific findings that invalidates the earlier published information. And these new and altered editions are published misleadingly with only the first edition publication dates printed on it instead of the latter edition publication dates (along with the former)."


Dear Kevin and others, you can visit our BMUFOR website and find many debunking articles on Meier that irrefutably exposes him to be fraud.

Bruce said...

Actually, what really "says it all", about Kevin Randle's lack of investigative skills 101 and ability to decipher a lie from the truth, is his very last paragraph --

"Although Kal Korff has discredited himself repeatedly with his antics, he accurately wrote, in his book Spaceships of the Pleiades, “The Billy Meier ‘evidence’ is now a money-making machine that shows no signs of slowing down.” This says it all."

To endorse such a statement -- “The Billy Meier ‘evidence’ is now a money-making machine that shows no signs of slowing down.” -- shows that Keven Randle has next to zero ability to discern the true truth. Period.

Kevin, you really should prove this and if you cannot factually verify that Meier's evidence is 'now a money-making machine that shows no signs of slowing down', feel free to publicly withdraw this second hand lie (from the likes of a known liar like Kal Korff, no less) as well as completely baselessly furthering such questionable 2nd hand lies.
It makes me wonder how many second hand lies you have furthered during your entire existence.

At the very least, admit you have done ZERO work on this 2nd hand baseless accusation. Since you tout yourself as a former honorable military man, own up to and correct your error(s).

RedTornado2008 said...

Mr Michael Horn, the answer is simple: Have those Pleiadian ships appear over the White House (or anywhere else with a large population of people) as Dr Randle suggests. That would prove Mr Meier's claim once and for all. Win-win for all involved!

Signifying Nothing said...

Kevin, you should leave all this up indefinitely. People need to see the wacky world of fruitcakery, fake bravado, and sock puppetry that defines Meierism. With that others can make an informed decision on the merits of this movement.

erickson said...

"I thought it silly of him to announce a debate without bothering to ask me."

To me it is similar to Horn's tactic of asking people to respond to claims, and if they do not, taking it as an "admission that their previous assessments were wrong." There are some things that are worth debating and some that are not. Horn seems to delight in setting things up, at least in his mind, to claim that skeptics have backed down or are afraid. If you are said to have "effectively endorsed the Meier case by failing to rebut the evidence" or debate Horn, then certainly you are not alone.

cda said...

MH wrote:

"To be clear, anyone can corroborate the claims that I absolutely stand by exactly what the actual evidence substantiates: The Billy Meier contacts are the only scientifically proven, still ongoing UFO contacts, now spanning more than 75 years."

If it is indeed "scientifically proven" and has been going on for over 75 years, this would mean it began at least 5 years BEFORE the infamous Roswell case. Therefor we should now say "Roswell: move over, and make way for a scientifically proven ET visit that predates you by half a decade".

To the best of my knowledge Roswell has never been "scientifically proven" and Kevin will agree on this, I believe.

We thus need to rewrite UFO history completely. Who will offer to undertake this task?

By the way, exactly how old was Billy when his contacts began?

KRandle said...

All -

Here are a few thoughts...

I did link to a pro-Meier site when talking about the Paris attack predictions which refutes one of the claims.

Since I never agreed to a debate, there is nothing for me to back out of... and to suggest otherwise is disingenuous.

Why not have Michael Horn tell how much money he makes are is relates to the Meier promotion... okay, that's not exactly fair because I wouldn't reveal my financial positions either. Maybe just tell us if there is any financial reward for the promotion of Meier. Do you sell books, posters, take money for appearing at conferences and the like.

I have said before and I'll say it again. Present cogent, intelligent criticisms and I'll post them. Attack me personal such as one response that was libelous, and it won't see the light of day here.

Ray Palm (Ray X) said...

Why bother to debate someone who does a great job proving the dubiosity of his beliefs?

Matt Knight said...

I've finally realised what Mahesh's problem is. He obviously has never experienced life in a culture where making backdated books to fool the public would be taken very seriously by authorities and would be a punishable crime if it were true. Switzerland is not the kind of country where anyone can make cheap knock-off T-shirts, passports, websites, or, blogs and claim they have real value.

As for Meier not wanting to give out any more evidence. Firstly, anyone with any adult sense of the world would know that those with this material would be swooped upon and their lives immediately endangered and that's if they could get the material back for testing and the right people to agree to test in the first place.

Here's first hand video testimony from Jim Dilettoso that he did test Meier's original negatives and they passed, but, you won't find any reference to this on BUMFOR. Why not? https://youtu.be/0uz1z5OEIm8?t=1m41s

As for not responding to Michael Horn's request to debate what you wrote, Kevin has the following gem, "There is no point in a debate". Of course, the fact that the developed brain evolved out of various forms of debate, as did civilisation, will probably sit well those not fully appreciative of that and concerned only with promoting "opinion" gossip and unsubstantiated lies.




Signifying Nothing said...

I am challenging Michael Horn to a debate over who has shown more courage (aka a lack of cowardice) in life, Michael Horn or Kevin Randles. We can find a mutually agreeable program to host the debate.

My position is that Kevin Randles has definitely shown more courage. I am assuming Michael Horn will argue for his side, but perhaps not.

It's true that I haven't seen Michael Horn's DD214, but I'm going to channel my inner Plejeran and assume that it's as tasty as a big chicken dinner.

Michael Horn must accept or that means he's a coward apparently.

JC said...

Ufo Bust
https://youtu.be/HxHt-R687pE

albert said...

All of this seems to be 'truth by proclamation'.

It's bad enough coming from the MSM, but intolerable coming from the UFO fringe.

It's as tiresome and non-productive as the same old arguments perpetrated forever onward.

@Michael, Billy is getting on. You should set up the Billy Meier Church soon. Like all religions, it'll be a gift that keeps on giving.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Meier

. .. . .. --- ....

Lance said...

This podcast demonstrates the deceitful way that Horn (one of the worst trolls on the internet) operates:

https://www.theparacast.com/podcast/july-11-2006-michael-horn/

There should be no questions after you hear this.

LBP said...

I bought Meier's coffee table book of photos when it first came out and have halfheartedly followed the case ever since. If it's a 100% hoax, it's a damn good and extremely elaborate one for a one-armed Swiss farmer. My guess would be that it is partly authentic (whatever THAT might mean in the context of something this bizarre), partly delusional (on the part of Meier and his cult followers) and partly a hoax (to keep it alive all these years). The "authentic" part might be 1% or 20% and might be "authentic" in a sense having nothing to do with Pleiadians or beamships.

At this point, any publicity is good publicity for Meier. I really don't understand why Kevin would dive into this. It's the perfect illustration of the old saying about wrestling with a pig: you both end up covered with mud, but the pig enjoys it. Attacking Meier just plays into his hands.

KRandle said...

I have seen nothing in the various websites I have visited, in the information presented, or in the arguments made that would suggest that I have been misinformed about the totality of the Meier case or the state of the evidence of it. I stand by my earlier comments.

Ray Palm (Ray X) said...

This comment by Paul Kimball sums it up:

Welcome to the "Michael Horn will spam you until you block him" club, Kevin.

albert said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
albert said...

@Michael,

"...Having just seen Kevin say that he stands by his comments, he is now obligated to defend them, since they're slanderous and defamatory, as well as inaccurate of course..."

Forget my previous question, It's clear you're referring to Kevin,

I reread Kevins post. There's nothing 'slanderous' or 'defamatory' in it. Nothing. Kevin is stating his -opinion-, which is his Constitutional right.

You, however, are accusing him of slander and defamation with no proof.

So man up, and apologize.

. .. . .. --- ....

Matt Knight said...

"I can’t tell you the number of times that I have asked someone for their military records to support their claims of military service and get a similar answer when they say that they have done so and to do so again is pointless."

If a senior officer told Kevin that the one claiming military service were who they say they were, that they had seen their military service records, would Kevin doubt, even, ignore that senior officer? That's exactly what he and all these know-it-all UFO amateurs do when ignoring the REAL scientists who tested and authenticated Meier's evidence: http://theyfly.com/Scientific_Experts.html

cda said...

Billy Meier deserves credit for one thing - his case is surely the longest standing UFO story still extant, and with the principal witness still alive to tell the world about it.

The Roswell tale is a mere 70 years old. The Meier tale is a vast improvement on this, being 'live' after 75 years!

And none of the abduction tales have lasted this length of time, either. So let us be thankful for this great achievement.

Signifying Nothing said...

Looks like Michael Horn has declined to debate me. By his standards, this is cowardice as well as an admission that he is a coward.

Kudos to Horn for admitting so publicly!

I'm going to move on to some serious material, probably the Adamski case.

Farewell Meierites! Please continue to show Kevin's readers your exemplary mental balance as well as lack of sociopathic tendencies.

Au revoir,
Chaim Schmuelson

Paul Young said...

I'm a long standing fan of this blog (from the beginning, in fact) but I can honestly say this is the most entertaining thread for a good long while now.

So, it starts from an earlier blog where Kevin Randle criticises MUFON for being overly welcoming (and non-critical) toward seemingly ridiculous stories.

Up pops Mr Horn (pun not intended) who is also critical of MUFON...but from a completely different angle!
He's annoyed that MUFON don't think the story he champions (Billy Meier) is daft enough to get a mention!

This is like the Groucho Marx quote "I don't want to belong to a club that will accept people like me as a member"... BUT IN REVERSE!

Chuckle. Wonderful pantomime. I tell you...you really couldn't pay for comedy as fine as this!

Unknown said...

When is a Pleidian light ship going to hover over in broad day light over New York city?

Ed V. said...

Debating Michael Horn is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter how well you play the pigeon is going to shit all over the board and than parade around like it won.

Mr. Sweepy! said...

Kevin,

Mr. Horn found my business email address and wrote about Meier. Clearly I thought his actions was unprofessional and took offense to this. Mr. Horn is looking for new followers for his beliefs in Meier and is raiding your blog for warm bodies and gullible minds. I am not interested in this case or hearing from Mr. Horn.

I am only interested in the cases from in your books and blogs Kevin mainly because of your honesty and professionalism.

Paul Kimball said...

Am I the only one that that finds it odd that the supposedly super advanced and all-wise Plejaren haven't bothered to teach Michael horn some manners or self-control, or at the very least prevailed upon him to let go of the blatant misogyny inherent in his junior-high school style bravado?

KRandle said...

Michael -

What debate would that be? I've agreed to no debate for tonight.

Nitram Ang said...

Needless to add, as has been explained to others on many occasion...
"THIS IS NOT A DEBATE - IT IS AN INVESTIGATION"

Bombastic Bill said...

Michael, point to one thing that Meier has done that has benefited humanity (and of course I do not mean monetarily)? If Meier is truly in contact with super advanced beings why have they not done anything? From something as big as curing someone with cancer to even curing somebody of hair loss? Why do these space beings only seem to want to benefit Billy and his chosen disciples?

Paul Kimball said...

Good news, Kevin: You won the "debate" last night on the X-one simply by not showing up.

PK

Matt Knight said...

Ed. V
That exact same comment, again? Maybe stop playing chess with Pigeons? It's called evolution. Meier has a lot of info on that, if you're up for a fair challenge and have had a chance to shower.

Nitram Ang
After a thorough investigation, the jury debate the findings to reach a final verdict. Think, like Kevin, Signifying Nothing and your name, you have it all backwards, only there was no debate.

Bombastic Bill
I mean... look at your photo! Maybe go see Meier and get your face sorted out? That'd be something & he'd be happy to help, for free, even with only one, very strong, arm.

Dougall said...

If you can't handle hundreds of pre-digital, clear, daytime photos of Plejaren beamships, 34 films, 125 eye witnesses, footprints, fingerprints, sound recordings, and many other thousands of pages of printed material, then you are too stupid to ever be convinced. That is why the Plejaren stopped bothering to allow themselves be filmed and photographed. There is no other UFO case in the world that has ANY evidence that compares to the Meier contacts. Every critic above has already had their questions answered in the contact reports, but they are too stupid and lazy to read the information and find the truth themselves. It's called self responsibility, and none of you critics have it yet.

KRandle said...

Michael -

The burden of proof lies with you... all you have proved is that a vast number of trees died for the ramblings of Billy Meier.

and Dougall -

Is insulting everyone who does not agree with you a viable strategy? Every critic has not had his questions answer and this idea that they wanted Billy Meier to take lots of pictures to prove their existence, but didn't bother to show up to be exposed to an independent audience with dozens of TV cameras rolling is ridiculous.

I will say that from this point, any post that is not cordial in its tone, free from insults will not see the light of day here.

Arguing by way of proclamation is not a proper strategy which is about all I see from your side... Twenty-six thousand of pages is not evidence, it is a number of pages... Dozens of the photographs have been exposed and now we learn that some governmental or secret agency is responsible for creating them and planting them on Meier. It is interesting that the evidence of a hoax is ignored or some sort of silly excuse is offered.

KRandle said...

Michael -

Well, you're both right and wrong. I'm not posting your latest because of the nasty tone. But, if you read this blog, you know that I often post comments that are critical. Free and open exchange of ideas without the unnecessary bullying. Tone it down, no problem. Fail and well, fail.

Nitram Ang said...

Hi Matt

You are nearly right...

After a thorough investigation, the jury discuss the findings to reach a final verdict...

cda said...

It gets curiouser & curiouser.

We now hear that some US government agency planted documents & photos on Meier. But for deacdes we have been told this same government has suppressed the truth about Roswell, and even threatened witnesses with death.

So the same government that wants to keep the lid firmly shut on Roswell also plants phony evidence to support Meier and his contacts. (Meier, I assume, is not even a US citizen).

Have I got this right? Are there really hundreds of clear photos, 34 films, 125 eye witnesses plus numerous footprints, fingerprints, sound recordings and thousands of pages of documentation of the Meier case? Whew!

Poor old Roswell. Its promoters tried very hard, but have well and truly lost the game.

By the way, Adamski managed to supply footprints, didn't he? Plaster casts I believe. But nothing else to match Billy Meier in any way.

Matt Knight said...

Nitram Ang

The jury discuss, debate; in actuality, deliberate (you were nearly right).

Word it how you want, Kevin doesn't even want to "discuss" these so-called, already explained, one-sided, findings with Michael Horn, but, he expects professional courtesy for Michael calling for some form of discussion after Kevin ignored all the evidence in this case and made no reference to it, to opposing views, so as to qualify as a balanced argument and thorough investigation.

As I say, you've still got the process all backwards with no deliberation whatsoever. Just flawed opinions based on the flawed conclusions of a hateful man who had no problem stealing all of Michael Horn's copyrighted books and films and giving it for free, illegally, on his hidden website. Basically he's a thief and you think his information is reliable, whereas Meier's counters are not to be trusted, despite his impeccable character, because BUMFOR says so.

My sympathies to anyone who has Kevin, et al as their jurors.

Paul Kimball said...

I ran for office here in Nova Scotia earlier this year. People were amazed that I took any and all attacks in stride, with a sense of humour and grace. A fellow candidate asked me how I managed to stay so even-keeled. I just replied that having dealt with some of the worst UFO super-duper true believers (i.e. cultists) over the years, the political stuff was smooth sailing in comparison.

The latest example comes from the "always desperate for attention" Michael Horn (who has been taking the occasional pot shot at me for years):

https://theyflyblog.com/2017/07/19/the-war-on-the-truth/

Kevin, looks like you and I have something in common. :-)

Dr. Moebius said...

I am so disappointed in both Michael and Kevin. Billy probably had some real experiences - maybe even ongoing (why Kevin thinks he can understand sentient beings that are thousands or millions of years ahead of us is amusing, because he speaks from his rear), but Billy also probably faked some shit. THAT BEING SAID,

MY MUFON colleagues are currently re-investigating the MEIER photographic EVIDENCE. I am particularly impressed by Professor Rhal Zahi of Colombia (who my colleague incorrectly accused of being a Michael Horn plant. I have been in email contact with him and his team, and my ex-wife WENT to his university, so I KNOW he's real! Sorry, Marc! Could Milton Cooper be right about the CIA infiltrating MUFON?), who has done a brilliant optical analysis and physics modeling using 3D visualization, optics, mathematics, geometry, and they conclude that it would have been NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE for Billy to have faked many of his photos, without a significant team and constructions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKeutVKFbG0&feature=youtu.be&ab_channel=RhalZahi


So, Kevin, you need a research refresher, because you're not using good evidence. I will be independently confirming OR denying Prof Zahi's analysis, and I'm a mathematician AND a former laser optical engineer.

And Michael, you do need to chill out on the sales job. Let the EVIDENCE speak, and don't waste your time refuting every negative. To me, after 50 years of studying this phenomenon, and having reviewed both sides of the Meier case, clearly it is highly debatable in some instances. Billy really needs to come clean if he faked some shit - which is normal human behavior. You get some notoriety, some good dough, but without current press, your story fades, so you may invent some sightings and fake some shit. This DOES NOT invalidate Billy's contact experiences, but only makes him more human. The problem is, according to Methusalem (Billy's ESTRANGED soon, who says Billy never faked anything. And his dad beat him, so he pretty much hates him and would spill the beans I'm sure if there were any..), Billy does NOT act the way he preaches, and his ego has gotten the best of him perhaps?

At any rate, to the debunkers, most UFOLOGISTS are NOT scientists; the MUFON folks I've met are smart, dedicated, and nice, but many harbor more belief than know how to evaluate evidence properly. Clearly MUFON National needs new leadership. What about Michael Horn taking MUFON's reigns for awhile?

Dr. Moebius said...

@cda you do not know how to interpret data. The CIA took his real photos and planted look-alike fakes to DIScredit him. Please, do a LITTLE research before you make such a fatuous comment. Thank you.

KRandle said...

Dr. Moebius -

I thought it was the Men in Black who substituted the photographs. But, didn't Meier and his supporters originally claim the photographs were authentic and only changed that when the source was found? Since there are now, at least, 230 photographs that have been declared fake, why is it that Meier did not notice the problem before it was pointed out to him?

Taro said...

Tampering was verified by Wendelle Stevens:

"We checked the exposed film through its processing routing stages and verified the processing logs, which showed that every roll of film received from Meier and his friends was developed and returned, mostly by mail. We were told, and witnesses supported this, that much of the exposed film, over 30% of it, never came back from processing. Our investigation showed that the disappearance must have taken place in the mail system— an unusually high loss rate for any public service, which in itself raises many questions."

Also, from a US security agent whose identity Stevens chose to protect:

"In one specific incident the film tested was believed to be a copy, and not the original negative as Billy thought. Sorry about that. The way we got copies of Billy’s pictures was by paying off the man who handled the film processing for Billy. The man simply ordered a second set of pictures for us, and a second copy of the negatives, at an attractive profit, and the man often had copies made for himself. In a couple of cases we took the original copy of the negative, for the type of lab checks that you wanted to make.

We also sent some garbage film through to the same processing company by the same store, under Billy’s name, to keep the boys doing the film processing honest. We did establish that there was a little hankey pankey going on at the processing plant, and/or in the mail some place. Someone else was getting off with the first copy of the negatives most of the time. Several times, according to the experts, our copy of the negative would be about the fifth one."

I'm not sure there are 230 images "declared fake" but all of his "space trip" images were taken in the same time frame. It is most likely that whomever was monitoring Meier's film rolls saw an opportunity to replace his originals with cleverly chosen duplicates. Keep in mind, they're all blurry(save for "Asket"). It is perfectly reasonable for someone whose duty it was to take photographs yet has no personal interest in the activity to be fooled by blurry photos he was most likely expecting(many of his photos came back complete garbage from radiation emitted by their technology).

Also, I would just like to point out that Michael Horn is neither a contactee nor UFO researcher. Nothing he says or does(or fails to say or do) has any bearing on the validity of the Meier case.

Taro said...

I should make a slight correction. Michael Horn is not a UFO analyst: He has not been involved in any of the numerous scientific analyses of the Meier evidence. If Mahesh Karamudi can call himself a UFO researcher then anyone can, particularly Horn, who has visited the UFO sites as well as interviewed both contactee and numerous witnesses. There is far too much reliance on the opinions of UFO researchers and not enough discussion of the science involved in this case— in my opinion, of course.